Amen - though in my experience it's always been the case that a music business degree means very little in terms of preparedness.
What’s changed is the music industry is increasingly hostile to new artists, and subsequently the new managers, labels, agents, marketers, etc that find their footing in the industry alongside them.
I assumed all music business programs were like this. In my career, I never once met a someone I worked with who has a "music business degree." But I will say in the U.S., it is not like this. There are a ton of great programs that have their finger on the pulse: UCLA, Syracuse, Belmont, Berklee (where I teach). The role of edu is so different in the U.S. so many it's not relevant, but I do feel as though students graduate and can contribute immediately.
I’m glad you have raised these points. It feels so obvious that we should co-design or be consulted on courses and what skills are missing. I engage and mentor creatives in my creative studio at Hinterland Creative in Hull, as part of my daily practice. A common feeling is that they all feel let down by being dropped off a cliff with no rope when it comes to leaving education. And they come to me asking all of the questions about how to thrive and survive in music creative. It seems obvious to me.. and would have a 360 effect on equal beneficiaries if we joined the dots here and invested care into designing how this incubation period could work so much better for all.
The key for me was programmes run by Generator in Newcastle. I learned more in their 3-day programmes and made more connections than 3 years at university (plus they were completely free) Personally wish we had these organisations in every hub of the country, given support and funding so they can be the bridge for getting young people into the music industry. And they would the perfect places to go hunting for new hires.
YES. I did loads of work with Generator when Motive Unknown was in it's infancy, and it was both a pleasure and an honour to do so. Jim, Joe and the team were running an incredible operation and I've no doubt whatsoever that it made material impact on the local scene up there. In fact, someone I work with at Warp was a product of that if my facts are correct. Such a shame it then moved on to other areas (tech, I think?), possibly because funding was drying up for music support.
Yep - hard to explain how much of a big influence they were for me and the whole music scene up there during that era! By the way if any initiatives or anything spins up out of your post I'd be happy to help in any way I can - feel strongly about this like you
Institutions like BIMM are for-profit entities that exploit young people’s dreams of being an artist or running a label. Unfortunately, they more often take these kids’ money (or their parents') and as you’re discovering, present a curriculum that ultimately leaves them unprepared for a job in the industry. I taught an Intro to A&R class for a year at a US equivalent to BIMM. The course material was poorly structured by an academic who had never worked at a label, run a label, or done A&R in any capacity. Students were disengaged, disinterested in doing any real learning; they just wanted to be close to the music and be cool. The only one in my class who was actually engaged is in a semi successful power pop band in town that puts out their own music, knows how to monetize it, and books their own tours. But he never graduated as the school lost its accreditation after the second year.
I never knew a music degree to have anything to do with the music industry. You had to go get dirty. However, now the digerati and now A.I having swallowed up the economy a learning curve is not affordable especially for boutique firms. With everyone so focus on tech the real concerns are just being swallowed up... oh well...
I'm curious: when you say you "have never in fifteen years come across a graduate from the likes of BIMM, ACL, or other educational establishments offering music industry-related degrees, whose learning had remotely prepared them for a career in our company", are you talking about people who studied music per se, or some adjacent subject like music business?
And given the nature of your company, wouldn't it make more sense to approach leaders of marketing courses rather than music ones?
That's a fair question. TBH I feel that given we have music industry specific higher education establishments like BIMM etc, we should have within those courses that teach marketing but in the context of music specifically.
Ironically, we have hired people who have marketing degrees or wider non-music marketing experience, and they have proven to be great hires. So I think you make a fine point that we could probably go shopping more at Unis that do 'regular' marketing degrees. But I still feel BIMM and co could (and should) be doing more to service businesses like ours. Ultimately if the view is that those degrees don't deliver 'work ready' candidates (as I feel it is from all the other business owners/leaders that I talk to) then really what are they there for? You might as well close them down and let kids go do a 'proper' marketing degree at a regular university.
Semi-retired music journalist here, who these days spends most of his time covering the aerospace sector - but it may be of interest that I've heard similar conversations taking place in that industry. Perhaps less to do with the questionable calibre of people coming out of specialist and industry-specific courses, but more to do with how, in a sales-type role particularly, given the choice between an aircraft nerd with no sales experience and a skilled salesperson who would have to learn about aircraft from a standing start, the businesses would usually take the latter. That said, there are always exceptions - and several of the people I've asked have said "Can we please have both?"
Sadly, I feel we have started leaning the same way. We do not have the time or cash flow to be training up kids with no prior experience. We also don't seem to get any graduate applications of any real merit, and so we are increasingly hiring a generation older, where they've got 3 years experience already via roles elsewhere... all of which only reinforces what Alan Milburn is talking about in his report.
It's interesting. Aviation companies by and large seem to be pretty good at bringing new talent in despite facing the same challenges as you describe about not really being able to afford to carry new staff for too long. But there's an acceptance and an understanding that some element of that is necessary. It's particularly noticeable in aircraft maintenance. There's no shortage of new applicants and most of the bigger companies have solid and thorough apprenticeship routes that act as their entry point for new entrants, so the new talent is there and is being brought through. The problem is the critical shortage of properly experienced people. The industry lost loads of senior folks during Covid, so many that it's had to hire back people who'd retired, and salaries for senior aircraft engineers have doubled. But those new apprentices take six, seven, 10 years - or more - to get to where they're ready to take over those more senior roles.
As a graduate of Syracuse’s first music industry program and someone who has worked at Polygram, Chappell, Warner, NMPA and the Harry Fox Agency as well as a professional musician I would love to start a MI tutorial program for aspiring music industry prospective employees. Please contact me so we can discuss. This will be a Super Masters course in the actual nuts and bolts of the process, procedures, MI vernacular and how to work with others in the MI globally.
Anyone whose motive is to help young people make more money over making better music is part of the problem, not the answer. Kev Nixon, founder of BIMM 2001 to 2012 (a very different music business where everyone who was good enough made a decent living).
I'd agree with that Kev but in the context of this conversation the focus is not on higher ed places teaching students how to be better musicians, but about how they can train people to be members of the wider music industry workforce.
We did both Darren, but the drift from music is now an exodus. I’m not a stats guy but in 2001 music was taught in 77% of British education establishments, today that number is 39%. That has a trickle-down effect. Plus of course streaming ended the (then 4) majors route to market and manufacturing overhead, causing those corporations to eliminate over 5k jobs EACH in the UK and Europe. Young people have sussed out that music is a road to nowhere and degrees are virtually worthless, hence learning an instrument is less important than leaning image and sonic manipulation. RIP music biz…
Emily! Amen to that, LOL - mine has absolutely stood me in firm stead... even if anyone I know looks at me like I'm mad when I tell them what the degree was that I graduated with 😆
I think you make a really valid point, Darren. I have tried to change undergraduate music business courses at two institutions to reflect industry and there were so many internal political factors that came into play. In the end I just concentrated on my little business optional module and my extra curricular projects. You have met some of those students. My colleague Jamie is right about our MA, I am also a proud alumni. Many of our MA students are already in or go straight into industry roles. There were even more going into industry before the government brought in restrictions for international students. It would be great to sit down with you to see what the three of us could achieve.
I would love to sit down and talk about this with you. How the things are required to be taught, align with how you are you are allowed to teach, and then with the expectations and ability of students to create real experience is always complex. But I am very happy to say despite all that, the industry is full of students from the MA I work on and they are are all doing incredibly well ranging from interns, label owners, head of audiences for large labels and head of AnR positions, tech companies etc etc. largely due to the work Sally Anne Gross did to create a course that took a critical position. I would never put this down to what they are taught directly, but hope we create a space to inspire and encourage them to challenge ideas and maybe push the ones who are open to the process to push themselves. always love to hear ideas and input from people I rate so would love to hear more next time we catch up.
Amen - though in my experience it's always been the case that a music business degree means very little in terms of preparedness.
What’s changed is the music industry is increasingly hostile to new artists, and subsequently the new managers, labels, agents, marketers, etc that find their footing in the industry alongside them.
Yet another socialized cost to a music ecosystem that lets platforms and massive catalogs mediate the ability to build up the next generation (see e.g https://infinitecatalog.substack.com/p/thom-yorkes-ivors-speech)
I assumed all music business programs were like this. In my career, I never once met a someone I worked with who has a "music business degree." But I will say in the U.S., it is not like this. There are a ton of great programs that have their finger on the pulse: UCLA, Syracuse, Belmont, Berklee (where I teach). The role of edu is so different in the U.S. so many it's not relevant, but I do feel as though students graduate and can contribute immediately.
I’m glad you have raised these points. It feels so obvious that we should co-design or be consulted on courses and what skills are missing. I engage and mentor creatives in my creative studio at Hinterland Creative in Hull, as part of my daily practice. A common feeling is that they all feel let down by being dropped off a cliff with no rope when it comes to leaving education. And they come to me asking all of the questions about how to thrive and survive in music creative. It seems obvious to me.. and would have a 360 effect on equal beneficiaries if we joined the dots here and invested care into designing how this incubation period could work so much better for all.
Amen to that Stewart!
The key for me was programmes run by Generator in Newcastle. I learned more in their 3-day programmes and made more connections than 3 years at university (plus they were completely free) Personally wish we had these organisations in every hub of the country, given support and funding so they can be the bridge for getting young people into the music industry. And they would the perfect places to go hunting for new hires.
YES. I did loads of work with Generator when Motive Unknown was in it's infancy, and it was both a pleasure and an honour to do so. Jim, Joe and the team were running an incredible operation and I've no doubt whatsoever that it made material impact on the local scene up there. In fact, someone I work with at Warp was a product of that if my facts are correct. Such a shame it then moved on to other areas (tech, I think?), possibly because funding was drying up for music support.
Yep - hard to explain how much of a big influence they were for me and the whole music scene up there during that era! By the way if any initiatives or anything spins up out of your post I'd be happy to help in any way I can - feel strongly about this like you
Thanks, Ben. I shall certainly keep that in mind.
Institutions like BIMM are for-profit entities that exploit young people’s dreams of being an artist or running a label. Unfortunately, they more often take these kids’ money (or their parents') and as you’re discovering, present a curriculum that ultimately leaves them unprepared for a job in the industry. I taught an Intro to A&R class for a year at a US equivalent to BIMM. The course material was poorly structured by an academic who had never worked at a label, run a label, or done A&R in any capacity. Students were disengaged, disinterested in doing any real learning; they just wanted to be close to the music and be cool. The only one in my class who was actually engaged is in a semi successful power pop band in town that puts out their own music, knows how to monetize it, and books their own tours. But he never graduated as the school lost its accreditation after the second year.
I never knew a music degree to have anything to do with the music industry. You had to go get dirty. However, now the digerati and now A.I having swallowed up the economy a learning curve is not affordable especially for boutique firms. With everyone so focus on tech the real concerns are just being swallowed up... oh well...
I'm curious: when you say you "have never in fifteen years come across a graduate from the likes of BIMM, ACL, or other educational establishments offering music industry-related degrees, whose learning had remotely prepared them for a career in our company", are you talking about people who studied music per se, or some adjacent subject like music business?
And given the nature of your company, wouldn't it make more sense to approach leaders of marketing courses rather than music ones?
That's a fair question. TBH I feel that given we have music industry specific higher education establishments like BIMM etc, we should have within those courses that teach marketing but in the context of music specifically.
Ironically, we have hired people who have marketing degrees or wider non-music marketing experience, and they have proven to be great hires. So I think you make a fine point that we could probably go shopping more at Unis that do 'regular' marketing degrees. But I still feel BIMM and co could (and should) be doing more to service businesses like ours. Ultimately if the view is that those degrees don't deliver 'work ready' candidates (as I feel it is from all the other business owners/leaders that I talk to) then really what are they there for? You might as well close them down and let kids go do a 'proper' marketing degree at a regular university.
Semi-retired music journalist here, who these days spends most of his time covering the aerospace sector - but it may be of interest that I've heard similar conversations taking place in that industry. Perhaps less to do with the questionable calibre of people coming out of specialist and industry-specific courses, but more to do with how, in a sales-type role particularly, given the choice between an aircraft nerd with no sales experience and a skilled salesperson who would have to learn about aircraft from a standing start, the businesses would usually take the latter. That said, there are always exceptions - and several of the people I've asked have said "Can we please have both?"
Sadly, I feel we have started leaning the same way. We do not have the time or cash flow to be training up kids with no prior experience. We also don't seem to get any graduate applications of any real merit, and so we are increasingly hiring a generation older, where they've got 3 years experience already via roles elsewhere... all of which only reinforces what Alan Milburn is talking about in his report.
It's interesting. Aviation companies by and large seem to be pretty good at bringing new talent in despite facing the same challenges as you describe about not really being able to afford to carry new staff for too long. But there's an acceptance and an understanding that some element of that is necessary. It's particularly noticeable in aircraft maintenance. There's no shortage of new applicants and most of the bigger companies have solid and thorough apprenticeship routes that act as their entry point for new entrants, so the new talent is there and is being brought through. The problem is the critical shortage of properly experienced people. The industry lost loads of senior folks during Covid, so many that it's had to hire back people who'd retired, and salaries for senior aircraft engineers have doubled. But those new apprentices take six, seven, 10 years - or more - to get to where they're ready to take over those more senior roles.
As a graduate of Syracuse’s first music industry program and someone who has worked at Polygram, Chappell, Warner, NMPA and the Harry Fox Agency as well as a professional musician I would love to start a MI tutorial program for aspiring music industry prospective employees. Please contact me so we can discuss. This will be a Super Masters course in the actual nuts and bolts of the process, procedures, MI vernacular and how to work with others in the MI globally.
Ping me
Vincent S Castellucci
Anyone whose motive is to help young people make more money over making better music is part of the problem, not the answer. Kev Nixon, founder of BIMM 2001 to 2012 (a very different music business where everyone who was good enough made a decent living).
I'd agree with that Kev but in the context of this conversation the focus is not on higher ed places teaching students how to be better musicians, but about how they can train people to be members of the wider music industry workforce.
We did both Darren, but the drift from music is now an exodus. I’m not a stats guy but in 2001 music was taught in 77% of British education establishments, today that number is 39%. That has a trickle-down effect. Plus of course streaming ended the (then 4) majors route to market and manufacturing overhead, causing those corporations to eliminate over 5k jobs EACH in the UK and Europe. Young people have sussed out that music is a road to nowhere and degrees are virtually worthless, hence learning an instrument is less important than leaning image and sonic manipulation. RIP music biz…
Can’t beat an Information and Library Studies degree for all-round adaptable skills, Darren!
Emily! Amen to that, LOL - mine has absolutely stood me in firm stead... even if anyone I know looks at me like I'm mad when I tell them what the degree was that I graduated with 😆
I think you make a really valid point, Darren. I have tried to change undergraduate music business courses at two institutions to reflect industry and there were so many internal political factors that came into play. In the end I just concentrated on my little business optional module and my extra curricular projects. You have met some of those students. My colleague Jamie is right about our MA, I am also a proud alumni. Many of our MA students are already in or go straight into industry roles. There were even more going into industry before the government brought in restrictions for international students. It would be great to sit down with you to see what the three of us could achieve.
Happy to chat further Julia!
I would love to sit down and talk about this with you. How the things are required to be taught, align with how you are you are allowed to teach, and then with the expectations and ability of students to create real experience is always complex. But I am very happy to say despite all that, the industry is full of students from the MA I work on and they are are all doing incredibly well ranging from interns, label owners, head of audiences for large labels and head of AnR positions, tech companies etc etc. largely due to the work Sally Anne Gross did to create a course that took a critical position. I would never put this down to what they are taught directly, but hope we create a space to inspire and encourage them to challenge ideas and maybe push the ones who are open to the process to push themselves. always love to hear ideas and input from people I rate so would love to hear more next time we catch up.
Always up for the chat fella!